A City Council member is working on an ordinance change that would allow pit bulls in Denver.
But repealing the city’s 20-year-old ban on pit bulls would come with many stipulations, such as requiring temperament testing, muzzling the dog, and requiring special licensing and insurance fees, to name a few proposed restrictions.
Councilwoman Carla Madison — who identifies herself as a “dog lover” who is opposed to the city’s breed-specific legislation — said the idea is only in very preliminary stages, being discussed with fellow Council members, the mayor, animal control officials and city attorneys.
“For me personally, it’s not about the dogs, but about the people who own the dogs,” said Madison.
Being called the Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Act, support for the ordinance change is growing with a national pro-pit bull group based out of California called ROVERlution. Founder of the group, David Edelstein, said the city could help close its $120 million budget shortfall if it only repealed the breed ban.
“They’re spending about a quarter of a million dollars per year (on enforcing this ban). But has it alleviated dog bites in Denver? No, not even close,” said Edelstein.
But Meghan Hughes, spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Health, said ROVERlution never contacted her office in conducting its cost analysis. Records provided by Hughes show that 2,011 pit bulls have been euthanized by the city.
Regardless, Edelstein says the city can both save and make money by repealing the ban and then issuing fines and fees related to an ordinance change.
“Now is the perfect time to use home rule for something productive and in the name of public welfare,” he wrote to city officials. “This law and its authority has been abused long enough.”
“This is something we will certainly look at carefully,” he said. “In the end, we want to do what’s best to maintain a safe city for everyone.”
Hughes was unable to say with certainty whether a ban on pit bulls has made the city safer.
“I don’t know that there’s one single answer to that. I think it all depends on the way you look at it,” she said. “Technically, there hasn’t been any serious bites since the ban was put into place; however, it’s hard to tell when you really don’t know how many dogs are out there.”
Denver actually has a higher than normal rate of dog hospitalizations than any other area of Colorado, despite the ban, according to the National Canine Research Council.
Several other towns and cities in Colorado — including Englewood and Lakewood — have examined dog bite data and decided breed-specific legislation does not work.
Ban advocates, however, point out that there has not been a serious pit bull attack in Denver since the 1989 mauling of Rev. Wilbur Billingsley, who was left with more than 70 bites and two broken legs. The incident resulted in the City Council banning pit bulls from the city.
Local ban foes declined to comment on Madison’s proposal, saying it is too premature.
Meanwhile, three former Denver residents have filed a lawsuit to overturn the ban. In May, a federal appeals court in Denver gave the go-ahead to challenge the law in court. The three-judge panel overturned a March 2008 decision by a federal judge to dismiss the lawsuit.
Facing budgetary pressures, sources — who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the press — said city officials have expressed an interest in finding a fast compromise to squash the lawsuit and stop mounting legal fees. A compromise could include fast-tracking the Responsible Pit Bull Ownership Act.
“It’s designed to prevent maulings and death attacks by pit bulls,” he said of the ban.
City attorneys are still trying to determine whether the ban must first be repealed before it can be changed, said Madison.
The councilwoman says she has been receiving letters concerning her proposal from across the nation, but very few from Denver citizens. She is asking for Denverites to send her their opinions so that she and the rest of Council can make an informed decision.
“I’m just a dog lover, and I have had pit mixes and have known pits that are great dogs, and I know people that have had to leave the city because of their dog,” said Madison. “But, ya know, people snap. Some people say that pit bulls have this internal negative thing that they can just all of a sudden be nice family dogs and then one day just snap. But I think that could happen to anyone at any time.”
| Comments: |
| selwyn marock @ 2009-08-03 02:55:31 | Hitler was ultimately defeated.Re public perception the media has done sterling work in creating this hate campaign against pitbulls undoubtably the most persecuted creatures on our
sick planet.And of course wherever there is BSL the politicos
and police officials never go after
the dog-fighting rings but find it safer
and easier to waste taxpayer's money going after the law-abiding citizen's
and there family pets.
Let us not forget the animal control
officials who gravitate to these positions they enjoy killing without fear of retaliation from the enemy.
The likes of individuals like K. Nelson the self proclaimed "war hero" who also spends many tax dollars pursuing his hate campaign.
No councilwoman Madison perceptions can be created even when they are total nonsense.
My money has always been that in due course the new president Obama who I rate as a decent human being ultimately will ban this racist law altogether.
smarock10@yahoo.com
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 05:47:13 | "Meghan Hughes, spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Health said. “Technically, there hasn’t been any serious bites since the ban was put into place."
I continue to be awe-struck by the unbelieveable and obviously false statements made by Denver officials.
NO serious bites?
Tell that to the 200+ people hospitalized in Denver over the past 10 years from dog bites - I am sure they will be comforted to know that Denver has absolutley NO knowledge of their injuries.
Maybe if Denver stopped trying to defend a cruel and ineffective pit bull ban they would have time to keep accurate records of dog bite injuries in their county/city.
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-03 06:33:55 | No need for temperament tests or muzzling. A much simpler breed specific law requring the microchipping of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes and the spay/neuter of all pit bulls and pit bull mixes except AKC and UKC-PR registered show dogs would address the pit bull crisis AND allow every remotely responsible pit bull owner to keep his/her pit bull. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-03 06:37:27 | Selwyn Marock,
Are you trying to set a new record? In the very first word of the very first post on this issue you invoke Godwin's Law!
You lose. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-03 06:40:49 | Selwyn,
It isn't "racist" to note that a breed of dog bred to attack without provocation and keep on attacking until his adversary is dead is more likely to attack and kill than is a golden retriever (bred to carry slippers around, or a baby bird without every hurting it).
The problem that legislators have is that if they repeal the pit bull ban, there WILL be another child mauled by a pit bull. People will then be wondering why they put children at risk. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 07:38:21 | Several notes: First, BSL does work...check the stats for Council Bluffs, IA...pit bull maulings went from 23, to 10, to 5, then 2....thats a 50% reduction each year. Next, 200 bites requiring hospital visit does not equal a serious mauling...people go to hospitals for minor cuts....read what the city says - no "serious bites" says the city - I think they'd know. Serious bites involve life-flight helicopters and/or funerals...just look at tiny North Las Vegas...they had 2 FATAL pit bull attacks within months of each other. Last, the "nat'l canine research council" isn't "national" it is one women, pro pit bull, who wrote a pro-pit bull book, who doesn't even live in Colorado. Denver has 2.7 million people, and no serious and NO FATAL attacks since BSL...North Las Vegas has 1 tenth the people (200 thousand, not 3 million) and had 2 FATAL PIT BULL MAULINGS just months apart last year alone... BSL works. Period. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 08:02:06 | Absolute Irony: this Council person who wants to repeal the breed specific ban on pit bulls, is agreeing to do so, if pit bulls are muzzled, specially licensed, temperment tested....WHOA isn't that breed specific legislation? Why does even Councilwoman Madison suggest pit bulls alone have these precautions? And not golden retreivers? Remember, Cinci went thru ALL OF THIS...a pit bull ban, followed by a brilliant council member who wanted it lifted based on stringent precautions, it got lifted, virtually no one obeyed the precautions, pit bull maulings returned, and so did the ban. Lets demand that Councilwoman Madison take a seat front & center at the first return of pit bull fatal attack funerals as part of her plan. |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 08:07:04 | cgr58 - Please Read Carefully:
Denver has had over 200 people ADMITTED to the hospital for serious and severe dog bites. Denver also had a child who died from a dog attack in 1998. ----
So, neither you or Devner "know" ----
Do a little research before you write
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 08:13:15 | Over the past 12 years - Denver has had the HIGHEST rate of dog bite hospitalizations in the state of Colorado.
So, how's that breed ban working for ya Denver?
Don't believe this - go to the State Public Health Data website and check for yourself.
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| mc45 @ 2009-08-03 08:31:50 | FACT - From 1995 - 2006: Two-hundred and seventy-three (273) men, women and children were ADMITTED to Denver Hospitals for injuires associated with serious / severe dog bites.
One child died.
Denver is the ONLY county in Colorado rated with a "HIGH" rate of dog bite hospitalizations by the State Health Department.
So, please tell me more about the effectiveness of breed !bans |
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| Marisa Hinojos @ 2009-08-03 10:56:21 | I am going to speek for myself, I do not feel there should be a ban on Pit Bulls. I do not feel Pit Bulls are born with a temperment, it is how they are raised, but that goes for any breed dog. If any dog does not have rules, boundaries, and limitations the dog is not happy. Just because Pit Bulls have a lot of muscle, does not mean people should be timid. Little Chihuahua's have aggression issues, a neighbors bit my Pit Bull's stomach, I have controll of my dog and he did nothing to the his attacker. But does anything happen, no cause it was a little dog, that's not right. |
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| MH @ 2009-08-03 11:52:51 | What a mistake would be made to overturn this ban. The reference made to how much BSL costs was done by a group that supports the tobacco industry in fighting smoking bans. In other words, just hired guns for anyone willing to pay their price. And the National Canine Research Council is a self proclaimed "expert" who is doing nothing more than selling her self published books to pit nutters, absolutely no credibility there. According to www.DogsBite.org, pits and pit types are killing people on average of one every 21 days based on news compilations. With that there should be a national ban on dogs created for an illegal activity. PREVENT THE DEED, REGULATE THE BREED, so people don't have to die. A dog bite is one thing, a pit mauling and killing is another. |
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| Dog Lover @ 2009-08-03 12:12:02 | I think there are a few things to notice here. First of all. The mauling which resulted in the pit bull ban. Does anyone know what kind of dog that was?? It is assumed the dog was a pit bull. As far as I have been able to figure out it was not. So why ban pit bulls?? Not saying we should ban any breed, but wouldn't it be more logical to ban the breed of dog that mauled the person? Second the child that was killed, what kind of dog was that?? The child was also killed after the ban, not before, so how did the pit bull ban save that child?? I think this is proof that the ban is not working. If it were, the dog bites would be reduced and/or eliminated. All dogs can bite, it is the owner's responsibility to keep other people safe from their dog. Even dogs that are not usually vicious can be in a situation where they will bite. |
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| mc45 @ 2009-08-03 12:15:39 | To MH - Can you not read? The pit bull ban has done NOTHING to reduce serious / severe or fatal dog attack cases in Denver - see above post!
As far as the NCRC, I believe there are many people that work for NCRC, but what does it matter who or how many people make up NCRC ?
If their data is correct and cannot be disputed - what is your problem?
Oh, I see the book is given away free on NCRC -
Are you purposely lying or really not able to read or comprehend? |
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| Bully @ 2009-08-03 12:40:56 | cgr58 and dogcentric, are you honestly that uninformed? Why do you even bother to share your opinion when you clearly haven't even done even a minimum of research?
Denver has had at least one fatality since introducing BSL. And as others have pointed out, Denver has the highest rate of serious dog bites (that's dog bites serious enough for the victim to be admitted to the hospital) in the state.
In fact, Denver has almost six times the number of serious dog bites as Boulder (which has no BSL), even though Denver's population is only about twice that of Boulder's. That means you're about three times as likely to be seriously injured by a dog bite in Denver as you are in Boulder.
In Colorado, Labrador Retrievers are responsible for far more maulings than all of the 'pit bull' breeds and mixes put together, but people like you breed complacency about the dangers posed by Labs and other breeds you consider 'family friendly.'
Ignorant and simplistic views like yours--the idea that there are 'safe' and 'dangerous' breeds--contribute significantly to the increased risk of dog bites in Denver.
How many of those maulings could have been prevented if every dog owner was expected to socialize, train, and control their dogs? |
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| David Edelstein @ 2009-08-03 12:56:46 | First and foremost... Dr. Paula Terifaj DVM is the founder of Roverlution.org
Secondly... the Department of Environmental Health was contacted for statistics... yet that department as well as Denver Municipal Animal Control never responded to multiple requests for data and statistics.
Lastly... this Responsible Pit Bill Owner Act is "Out of the frying pan into the frying pan" in action. The concept is still discriminatory and poses a prejudice against a particular breed of dog based on 30 year old data from the Center for Disease Control, media sensationalism, personal (city officials) prejudice, and presenting a false sense of public safety for Denver residents.
The day that the Mayor and City Council of Denver "truly" open up the forum for discussing option to their existing breed ban will be the day this breed "truly" has its day in court. Until then... these same city officials can keep their "concerns" and "quotes" for the media as they drip of emptiness.
(Councilwoman Carla Madison excluded).
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| Rachel H. @ 2009-08-03 15:30:36 | Only ignorant morons enact pit bull bans. Its about freakin' time Denver stepped up, elected intelligent council members and got rid of this bulls*it piece of legislation.
WASTE OF MONEY! WASTE OF RESOURCES! |
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| Zupf @ 2009-08-03 16:06:19 | I thought it might be interesting to revisit why Denver went through the trouble of banning pit bulls; similar to the UK's Dangerous Dog Act. Denver's law was written in 1989, after two horrific pit bull attacks in Denver, one that killed a 3-year-old boy and another attack that left a 59-year-old minister with 70 bite wounds and two broken legs. It wasn't a poodle or a greyhoud that caused that damage; but a pit bull. I wish Denver every success in keeping people safe from these animals. Charlotte Blevens and Isis Krieger; pit bull victims have names. |
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| Eva @ 2009-08-03 16:42:10 | Instead of naively buying into the shrill media coverage of "pit bulls", I decided to do my own research analyzing dog bite statistics. From what I found, "dangerous dogs" are found almost exclusively in low-income zip codes that are also home to dangerous humans. Looking at statistics since the 1970's, it appears that whatever breed is currently most popular with poor people is also the most likely to attack humans and other dogs. I realize this is a HIGHLY non-politically correct thing to say, but sometimes facts trump being PC.
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| Mack @ 2009-08-03 17:13:48 | There are no dog bite statistics Eva because there is no National Bite registry.Can you link to your Research please.Thanks.I`m not quite sure that you can equate low income with "dangerous" humans but I`d be interested in reading your Research.Perhaps dogs are used more as guard dogs(chained) in low income neighborhoods and that might account for more dog bites. |
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| jan keith @ 2009-08-03 18:27:20 | Sloppy article: 1. By his own admission, (see comment below), David Edelstein is NOT the founder of Roverlution & has departed the organization. Dr. Paula Terifaj is its founder 2. Cost data for the city's breed ban was provided to this reporter weeks ago & nothing was done with the info, 3. Kory Nelson (spelled wrong in the article) is not an authority on dog bites. |
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| cgr @ 2009-08-03 18:28:11 | quoting bully: "In fact, Denver has almost six times the number of serious dog bites as Boulder (which has no BSL), even though Denver's population is only about twice that of Boulder's"...sorry, but you are the one magnificiently misinformed. Boulders popupation is 100,000....Denver's is 2.7 million. Denver has more than 27 times the people as Boulder. |
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| cgr @ 2009-08-03 18:37:00 | Robin benit: Please Read Carefully- "Meghan Hughes, spokeswoman for the Department of Environmental Health, said "“Technically, there hasn’t been any serious bites since the ban was put into place;" ---its right there in this article. Poodle, cocker spaniel, golden retriever bites are rerely serious, pit bull amputations and fatal attacks are. |
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| Bully @ 2009-08-03 19:42:59 | cgr, you're still wrong. Where are you getting your information, anyway?
Denver county has a population of just over 500K. Boulder county (the statistics are for the whole county of Boulder, not just the city) has over 280K.
The rate of dog bites per 100K in Denver is 4.1, while the rate in Boulder is only 1.4. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:16:19 | CGR said - Karen Delise notes that there hasn't been a fatal pit bull attack in Denver since the city banned the breed in 1989 ----
Thank you for showing the media cannot be relied upon for information on dog attacks or for statistics - I NEVER spoke to that reporter. I do not know where they got their information from. I have repeatedly written or spoke about the fatal dog attack that occurred in Denver in 1998. It is on the NCRC website, the case is discussed in both my books. There are simply dozens of locations where you can find my comments on the fatal dog attack in Denver. But leave it to you to find an obscure and incorrect comment from one media source and ignore all the accurate sources of information on this case.
Karen Delise |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 20:21:58 | Marina- even using your numbers, Boulder 103K vs Denver 598K, thats 6 times as many....Bully said Denver was only twice as many as Boulder...congrats - you just nullified Bully's point that Denver has 6 times as many attacks as Boulder.....DUH |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:21:59 | Austin Cussins died on June 13, 1998 in Denver's Children Hospital from injuries he received from severe dog bites to the head. The dog was not a pit bull or pit bull type dog.
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 20:25:50 | Karen...assuming there was 1 Denver fatal in 1998, thats 1 in 11 years. In the tiny suburb North Las Vegas, they had 2 just last year that were just months apart....both pit bulls. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 20:44:26 | Karen... Austins Cousins was fatally mauled by a mixed-breed Rottweiler-bull mastiff Lakewood, not Denver. Not even the same county...Denver is in Denver County, Lakewood is in Jefferson County. He may have been pronounced dead in Denver, but the mauling occurred in another city and county. Now what was that you were saying about accuracy in reporting? |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:46:02 | First of all - the dogs in the one Las Vegas attack were NOT identified as "pit bulls" by any animal control expert. They were identified as mixed breed dogs.
Secondly, fatal dog attacks are exceedingly rare - and as such they have to be taken in the context of averages -
Nevada has only had 6 fatal dog attacks over the past 45 years. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:48:55 | Sorry cgr but again - you are reading the newspapers for your information - I spoke to the Denver County Attorney who was considering prosecuting the case, the bite occurred in Denver County. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:51:08 | And so, as I was saying - there is the proof (Again!) about the inaccuracy of reporting
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 20:54:41 | Denver District Attorney Bill Ritter Jr. handled the case.
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:00:22 | Wow cgr58 - you went from only two hours ago claiming there was NO fatal dog attack in Denver - to now pasting and copying articles about it.
Amazing !
Too bad it appears someone else had to providie all the details for you that enabled you to look it up.
I suppose now you are going to be an instant expert on this case too! |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 21:07:26 | Robin - the Rottweiler that killed Austin was owned by & lived with his father, who lived in Lakewood...Lakewood is not Denver. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-03 21:13:44 | cgr58 - 1 hour ago you were denying this attack even happened - now you claiming to know about where it happned because you just googled it!
You can't be serious. I've known about this case for 10 years and investigated it at the time.
The attack occurred in DENVER, was handled by the DENVER police and was investigated by the DENVER District Attorney's office.
So either trust me - or google a little harder and better |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 21:15:08 | Y'all do realize that defending a fatal mauling by a family pet Rottweiller that occurred on one side or the other of the Denver county limits, hardly helps your cause....the entire point of www.dogsbite.org is that Pit bulls and Rottweilers make up 70% of all fatal attacks...in fact Pit Bulls are at 60% alone the past 2 years. Even if this occurred in Denver county (conflicting reports) that only fuels the fire that Denver should have included the number 2 killer. |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:24:58 | cgr58 - Man, you just can't get it - It was NOT a Rottweiler - the dog that killed Austin Cussins was a large long-haired mixed breed.
And I thought your argument was that only pit bulls inflict these kind of injuries. But since you have been proven wrong on virtually every comment you have made - now you want to talk about Rottweilers and claim that if something happens just inside the city limits it really doesn't count !!!!
Holy smoke - talk about denial.
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:26:55 | cgr58 - you can't even get the facts straight on ONE single Denver case, and you want us to believe you precious dogsbites.org is any better than you??
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:32:35 | Let's recap"
cgr58 said: There have been no serious attacks in Denver since the ban. --- Proven wrong. ---- There have been no fatal attacks in Denver since the ban --- Proven wrong ---- Denver has 2.7 million people - Proven wrong.
The dog that killed Austin Cussins was a Rottweiler - Proven wrong ----
Ummhh, wonder what outrageous claim comes next?
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| Marina @ 2009-08-03 21:45:30 | Ahh, come on guys! Cgr just wants to stir it up to get his/her jollies. He/She's certainly not worth debating and has no care for accuracy--just wants to goad you all. Just be glad you're not his/her co-worker, neighbor, or family member and give it up. It seems as if he/she thrives on it. We all know the type, no? |
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| Kay Humbert @ 2009-08-03 21:46:24 | It’s about time Denver got its head out of its butt and got rid of the BSL. The pit bull family are no worse than any other dog family, just capitalized on by the worst of human society in their perpetual vexation on money through pit fighting and drug trafficking. Ask Best Friends Animal Society in UT how wonderfully the “super hero’s” pits fit into their new rescue homes. After being raised and trained to viciously attack and kill each other by the monster who should have been buried under the prison for ten years or more instead of having his hands slapped and welcomed back by the sporting industry, only a few were too far gone to serve as family companions for decent, responsible owners. I hope Councilwoman Madison is the hero who will restore this dog family to total equality in law with all canines, barring any discriminatory stipulations. The SANE VERSION of the bigot’s Prevent the Deed, Regulate the Breed is BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!!! |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 21:47:05 | The Rottweiler resided in Lakewood, Jefferson County....not Denver, nor Denver County....Ban advocates point out that there has not been a serious pit bull attack in Denver since the 1989 mauling of Rev. Wilbur Billingsley. Again, a fatal attack by a Rottweiler mastiff mix - a family pet - doesn't help your cause. Pit Bull bans would only 100% prevent all fatal attacks if 100% were by Pit Bulls. Pit Bull bans will reduce, in theory, the total of fatal attacks by 60%, and in fact in Denver that is true. Saying BSL is ineffective because 1 fatal non-Pit Bull attack ocurred in 11 yrs is false, in fact the results are as expected, unless you really want Denver to include Rottweiler & Rottweiler mixes. Even then, other breeds (all 148) will acount for less than 3% per any one breed. Remember, tiny North Las Vegas has bo BSL and had 2 fatal attacks within months of each other last year.
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| Kay Humbert @ 2009-08-03 21:48:36 | It’s about time Denver got its head out of its butt and got rid of the BSL. The pit bull family are no worse than any other dog family, just capitalized on by the worst of human society in their perpetual vexation on money through pit fighting and drug trafficking. Ask Best Friends Animal Society in UT how wonderfully the “super hero’s” pits fit into their new rescue homes. After being raised and trained to viciously attack and kill each other by the monster who should have been buried under the prison for ten years or more instead of having his hands slapped and welcomed back by the sporting industry, only a few were too far gone to serve as family companions for decent, responsible owners. I hope Councilwoman Madison is the hero who will restore this dog family to total equality in law with all canines, barring any discriminatory stipulations. The SANE VERSION of the bigot’s Prevent the Deed, Regulate the Breed is BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!!! |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:49:02 | Yeah, you're right Marina. We should just let her rant - but sometimes the temptation is too great - it's like shooting fish in a barrel - but, I guess you are right - there really is no sport in it. |
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| Marina @ 2009-08-03 21:49:53 | Oops! And that said, I did type in the incorrect population for Boulder County. It's 293,161, not 103,100 (the city's population) as I wrote earlier. I am sorry about that as I was rushing. And still don't know why I even bothered to correct some of the inanities in the first place. |
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| Kay Humbert @ 2009-08-03 21:50:00 | It’s about time Denver got its head out of its butt and got rid of the BSL. The pit bull family are no worse than any other dog family, just capitalized on by the worst of human society in their perpetual vexation on money through pit fighting and drug trafficking. Ask Best Friends Animal Society in UT how wonderfully the “super hero’s” pits fit into their new rescue homes. After being raised and trained to viciously attack and kill each other by the monster who should have been buried under the prison for ten years or more instead of having his hands slapped and welcomed back by the sporting industry, only a few were too far gone to serve as family companions for decent, responsible owners. I hope Councilwoman Madison is the hero who will restore this dog family to total equality in law with all canines, barring any discriminatory stipulations. The SANE VERSION of the bigot’s Prevent the Deed, Regulate the Breed is BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!!! |
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| Kay Humbert @ 2009-08-03 21:50:46 | It’s about time Denver got its head out of its butt and got rid of the BSL. The pit bull family are no worse than any other dog family, just capitalized on by the worst of human society in their perpetual vexation on money through pit fighting and drug trafficking. Ask Best Friends Animal Society in UT how wonderfully the “super hero’s” pits fit into their new rescue homes. After being raised and trained to viciously attack and kill each other by the monster who should have been buried under the prison for ten years or more instead of having his hands slapped and welcomed back by the sporting industry, only a few were too far gone to serve as family companions for decent, responsible owners. I hope Councilwoman Madison is the hero who will restore this dog family to total equality in law with all canines, barring any discriminatory stipulations. The SANE VERSION of the bigot’s Prevent the Deed, Regulate the Breed is BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!!! |
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| Kay Humbert @ 2009-08-03 21:53:02 | It’s about time Denver got its head out of its butt and got rid of the BSL. The pit bull family are no worse than any other dog family, just capitalized on by the worst of human society in their perpetual vexation on money through pit fighting and drug trafficking. Ask Best Friends Animal Society in UT how wonderfully the “super hero’s” pits fit into their new rescue homes. After being raised and trained to viciously attack and kill each other by the monster who should have been buried under the prison for ten years or more instead of having his hands slapped and welcomed back by the sporting industry, only a few were too far gone to serve as family companions for decent, responsible owners. I hope Councilwoman Madison is the hero who will restore this dog family to total equality in law with all canines, barring any discriminatory stipulations. The SANE VERSION of the bigot’s Prevent the Deed, Regulate the Breed is BAN THE DEED, NOT THE BREED!!!!! |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-03 21:55:11 | Just one last comment--
Let's see: We can believe the anonymous cgr58 who claims the fatal attack was by a Rottweiler and occurred in Jefferson County ---or we can believe Karen Delise who has written two books on fatal dog attacks, and has given the date, location and names of the officials who handled the case??
Oh, and remember 1 hour ago cgr58 claimed the attack never even happened.
Ummmhh, who do I believe.... tough call.....
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-03 21:59:57 | FYI The US Army and US Marines are passing BSL at all USA bases, including Pit Bulls, Rottweiler, & their mixes....The few, the proud, the Marines...Semper Fi...hand to hand combat survivalists...America's bravest...want both breeds off all USA bases....Yet this Denver Councilwoman believes Denver children have less to worry about, and can better defend themselves, than a Marine. Maybe she can next "correct" the US Army & Marines. |
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| Marina @ 2009-08-03 22:05:57 | And this will be my last, too. Yeah, that's a tough one, Robin. Hmm, a person who just plain likes to stir it up, but obviously doesn't care a whit about accuracy? Someone who just likes to get a reaction out of people for their own strange means?Someone who, with all the cities in all the land, just keeps bringing up North Las Vegas? Even though one of those attacks wasn't a pit bull?
Or a nationally known author about whom I've read is not even a pit bull person, but just likes sense and sanity in laws? Someone who has researched this stuff? I don't know which would have more veracity in their comments. I'll have to mull it over a bit. Weigh the merits of both. I just can't come to a decision immediately. I don't wish to be rash or anything. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 05:53:45 | Good point about asking the politicians who repeal meaningful regulation of pit bulls to also making a pledge to sit front and center at the funeral of the first child mauled to death by pit bulls following repeal of that legislation. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 05:57:26 | The truth about the Vick pit bulls is that some of them are STILL warehoused at Best Friends (and will be for life) because even with the most intensive (and expensive) "rehabilitation" possible, the dogs were still too dangerous to go to even the most carefully screened, highly responsible, homes.
The pit bull community doesn't talk much about these dogs.
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 06:04:50 | Re comparing numbers of dog bites in Denver and Boulder, remember that there are two main components to dog bites related to the dog population --the higher the number of seriously dangerous dogs (such as poorly bred pit bulls, and remember, virtually ALL pit bulls are poorly bred) the higher the number of fatalities there will likely be. But the OTHER prong is the number of better than average extremely SAFE dogs (such as well bred golden retrievers and labs).. If most dog owners tend to be suburban families with children who have golden retrievers and labs (such as in affluent Boulder), that does tend to reduce the number of dog bites overall, compared to "average" biting dogs such as randomly bred mixed breeds.
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| @ 2009-08-04 06:35:55 | Karen Delise,
Just curious, but do you think that the fact that almost all pit bulls are horribly irresponsibly bred and are frequrently bred by horrible people who breed FOR dangerousness (either to people or to other dogs or both) somehow, magically, has no affect on their dangerousness?
I can't quite understand how that works. Most breeds of dog are good at what they are bred to do--labs are good retrievers, border collies are good herders Pit bulls are bred to kill. Why would you think that they wouldn't be quite good at it? |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 06:36:32 | Karen Delise,
Just curious, but do you think that the fact that almost all pit bulls are horribly irresponsibly bred and are frequrently bred by horrible people who breed FOR dangerousness (either to people or to other dogs or both) somehow, magically, has no affect on their dangerousness?
I can't quite understand how that works. Most breeds of dog are good at what they are bred to do--labs are good retrievers, border collies are good herders Pit bulls are bred to kill. Why would you think that they wouldn't be quite good at it? |
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| Drayton @ 2009-08-04 14:30:02 | www.pitbullguru.com/hoax.html
Educatuion will save dogs not legislation unless it is a law that protects dogs from ALL cruelty and ALL prejudice.
Dogs are safe when people are responsible. The numbers do not lie.
More people are waking up! |
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| Boss @ 2009-08-04 15:46:19 | It's sad that people say things like "pit bulls are bred to attack without provocation and keep attacking until their target is dead". If you look into the history, this makes no sense. They were bred as fighting dogs, yes, but only against other animals. They are the only breed where aggression towards humans was mostly bred out of their nature, because the people who used them for fighting had to be able to handle them. They couldn't risk their prize fighting dog attacking THEM!!! Any dog can be broken, any dog can be raised to attack people, but by nature pit bulls are not human aggressive. This is due to irresponsible owners, not inherently aggressive dogs. I own 3, and have a 6 month old son, and have had no problems whatsoever with them interacting. If anything, they're protective. Hell even cats can be twitchy and attack people with no provocation, but they don't get banned. The only reason Pitties and rotties get singled out is because of their strength. If a jack russel attacks you full on, it's weak enough that it won't do too much damage. If a bigger dog attacks for the same reason, then it's a vicious killer because it will put you in the hospital. This is not a breed thing. Any dog can be mistreated and broken. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 18:40:17 | Pit bull people love to spread the quaint old myth that "oldtime dogmen" (the term of respect for dog fighters of yore or not so yore) would NEVER breed a dog who was aggressive toward humans. In truth, many famous fighting pit bulls were aggressive toward humans. If they won in the pit, they were bred...regardless of their temperaments.
In any case, dangerousness toward other dogs is a temperament flaw, too. I don't want a dog who is bred to kill other dogs living next door to me, frankly. Not only is there a danger to my dogs, but there is a danger to any person who tries to break up the fight.
And, of course, drugs and dog fighting have a long, sweet history together. Anybody who doesn't think that plenty of pit bull breeders aren't breeding human aggressive pit bulls to guard their crack houses hasn't been paying much attention. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-04 18:43:43 | Re Boss's implication that it is all about the size of the dog, there are FAR more labs than pit bulls, labs are (on average) bigger than pit bulls and labs are plenty strong. There are also plenty of irrespnsibly owned labs and plenty of lab owners who don't properly supervise their dogs around children. So why aren't labs killing children in the same numbers as pit bulls?
The answer, of course, is that while there are lots of irresponsibly bred labradors, there is nobody breeding labs for dangerousness. Alas for pit bulls, there are lots of people breeding pit bulls for dangerousness. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-04 21:55:52 | dogcentric: In truth, many famous fighting pit bulls were aggressive toward humans.
dogcentric, unless you have ancestors that were oldtime dogmen and you have actual proof that these so called "famous fighting pitbulls" (dont know of any fighting dogs that were famous) were human aggressive, then maybe i'll give you the benefit of the doubt. but until then, ill take this bizarre statement as nothing more than a mere assumption. you BSL advocates are at the point of desperation, now that more and more communities are starting to see their methods are nothing more then archaic witch hunts. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-04 22:06:32 | dogcentric: "So why aren't labs killing children in the same numbers as pit bulls?"
I find this question very comical, becaue i cant recall the amount of times the media has mis identified stocky labs as pitbulls. but would you know this dogcentric? of course you wouldn't. because after your daily dose of the latest "pitbull attack" headline, you simply move on and wait for the next one. but I cant rally blame you though, because to some people who have real knowledge of dogs know there is only one pitbull: the american pitbull terrier. other people think that the term "pitbull" is reffering to three breeds, the staffy, the amstaff and the APBT. but most people (like you, dogcentric) think that pitbull refers to any dog with a big head, short har, and a wide chest. so going by your "knowledge" of dogs dogcentric, you shouldn't be suprised at all that pitbulls have the monopoly on attacks/fatalities. since there are so many breeds you consider to be pitbulls.
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| zirf @ 2009-08-04 23:39:29 | I am in Elkhart IN where they have been discussing BSL and dangerous dog laws. dogcentric has hit on a great thought without knowing it! Why don't we all put the money and effort into stopping the cause. If we all decided to go after any breeder who dose not have a understanding on how to properly handle the breed, be it any breed, it will make a difference. Strict licensing and stiff penalties for anyone breeding from poor stock and running puppy mills. Dose not have to be cost prohibitive. This and education would go further to protect people than BSL. Any dog can bite and large breed dogs belong with owners that are willing to learn what it takes to be a responsible owner for that breed. I don't believe that high insurance or fences are the answer. We could set up a low cost test for anyone who wants a permit to have breeds that are able to do extensive damage. Prove you can provide what the dog needs and there is no problem. Fail and take classes on that breed and retest at your own cost or pick another. You want to really clean up the biting problem? 1 free temperament test for any dog given by someone trained. Slightly aggressive dogs go to obedience school with a behavior modification program. Others are retested at the owners expense. If they fail a second time there gone. I am sure between the cost of BSL in any city and hitting up the insurance companies this would be something that could be done. I include them because they are paying much more from dog bite clams than ever before. Just an ideal but it is more than the all or nothing I see in any forum. If we all start making suggestions instead of blaming breeds this problem can be fixed. Yes I own a pit and I would be happy to have myself and her tested if it would put an end to breed discrimination once and for all. I just ask that it is done in a fare way across all breeds. Punish the deed not the breed is a great saying but I am hearing the other side and agree that the time to stop the deed is before it happens. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-05 05:29:39 | game89,
Maybe you don't know about human aggressive dog fighting pit bulls but they certainly existed (and still exist).
How about "Corvino's Blackie," a famous dog fighting pit bull who beat four dogs in a row? He was so severely human aggressive that (according to Richard Stratton, in "This is the American Pit Bull Terrier") "...the pit was wired to protect the spectators from Blackie and the referee carried a club to protect the men in the pit--just in case!!"
Or "Chinaman" (a dog that LOTS of pit bull people love to brag are in their dog's pedigree, just because he he was good at killing other dogs) who bit his own owner? |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-05 05:38:49 | Funny, game, that people like you who claim to somehow "know" that such a high percentage of dogs identified as pit bulls who kill children are really labradors despite having been identified as pit bulls (almost always) by crime scene investigators (who are trained to investigate and get the facts right) and by their own owners. Karen Delise wrote an entire book based on this premise ("The Pit Bull Placebo") so you would think she would have LOTS of photos of dogs that were supposedly misidentified, wouldn't you? Uh...no.
Her book has TWO photos (out of the hundreds of fatal pit bull attacks) , one of which was photo of a single dog (not a pit bull) in a two dog killing where the other dog looked substantially like a pit bull (she didn't publish a picture of that one--because it didn't suit her premise to have THAT picture). Hardly statistical evidence of a vast media conspiracy against pit bulls. Interestingly Delise herself misidentifies a picture of a dog involved in a fatal killing as a "labrador" when it clearly isn't. (Looks like a shepherd mix). Sadly for pit bulls, the vast majority of children reported killed by pit bulls ARE killed by pit bulls. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-05 05:43:20 | Zirf,
No need and no reason to spend the taxpayer's money regulating breeders of toy poodles. Toy poodles are not where the problem is. They are not glutting shelters or killing children. Pit bulls are where the BREED SPECIFIC problem is and there needs to be a BREED SPECIFIC answer. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-05 05:56:20 | Pat, or should I say dogcentric, every time you lie about me or my book, I will call you out on it.
The book was NOT about mis-identification of breeds - the book was about ALL the myths assoicated with dogs.
So, hence, there were only a couple of pictures on each topic - mis-identified dogs, being only one. Not a tough concept to understand for a reasonable person.
Also, the photos of the lab - which you claim is a shep x (Because I guess you also know more about that case than I do) was put in the book merely for visual interest - as the chapter was discussing dogs killing newborns and NOT about breed identification.
Also, if you claim to have knowledge about that dog and it's breed genetics, please cite your source and please cite which case (date, name of victim) for us.
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-05 06:04:54 | Dogcentric: -- You are so insistant on splitting hairs on every little point, and then make outrageous errors by saying things like "out of the hundreds of fatal pit bull attacks"
That is NOT true - There have NOT been "hundreds of fatal pit bull attacks."
A total fabrication on your part
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| Dryaton @ 2009-08-05 10:14:54 | All I can say is that ANYONE who speaks on behalf of dogs better really know their stuff about dog behavior. Period. I see and hear MANY people talk about dogs and I am curious what credentials they have to speak about dogs. This is the MAJOR problem. It is dog behavior that everyone is concerned about and if you don't know what you're speaking about be silent, please!
99% of ALL fatal attacks and injuries could be avoided and or reduced with proper EDUCATION for owners/trainers and the public at large. You can teach dogs about the force of their bite as puppies, you can prevent aggression and fear when you know what you’re doing. Even despite the education gap, dogs are still incredibly safe, compared to other risks.
Once you actually learn about legitimate dog behavior and training practices, the emotions get checked, because you have the truth. When you're running with falsehoods and fears you make mistakes. BSL is a mistake. Let's replace it with education, be legit people in dogs/behavior. we have them, but as always humans are slow to learn.
Get the facts and get the safety you desire. We’ve got that answers we just need to implement them.
www.pitbullguru.com/hoax.html
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| game89 @ 2009-08-05 10:37:54 | dogcentric, since when do crime scene investigators do DNA tests for dogs? thats not their job and thats not what they're trained to do. so i guess the FBI, CIA, and DEA have to carry around AKC pamphlets along with their handcuffs and colt .45's huh?? the people that have "correclty identified" pitbulls are local citizens and law enforcement. which brings me back to my previous point that most people consider alot of breeds to be pitbulls and dont worry, labs aren't the only dogs to be mis-labled as "pitbulls". boxers, mastiffs, presa canarios, dogo argentinos, or any mongrel or breed with the right physical characteristics, have been labeled as pitbulls. sounds like the miami dade human society requires your assistance dogcentric, since they've been killing more dogs that look like pitbulls instead of actual pitbulls. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-05 10:43:56 | and maybe you dont know about the law of the dog fighting world; "man eaters get shot". so going by that, im gonna assume the dog you've mentioned was shot on the spot. I guess you just so happened to leave out that tid-bit of information. thats what happens when you do selective research. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-05 10:47:24 | thats alright Karen, because i bet $100 that dogcentrics next key reference is gonna be dogsbite.org. since he considers just about anyone who bad mouths pitbulls an "expert" on the issue. |
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-05 11:49:36 | game89 - Even dogsbites.org - that counts every mixed breed dog a "pit bull" - that counts people who have died from natural causes as "pit bull fatalities" - that counts dogs as "pit bulls" even though the dogs were NEVER captured or officially identified- even using the outrageous "record keeping" of dogsbites.org cannot produce a list of "hundreds of fatal pit bull attacks"
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| Karen Delise @ 2009-08-05 11:58:29 | game89 - So, not even dogsbites.org can cover dogcentrics lies.
But, I imagine this is a bet you don't mind losing :-)
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| game89 @ 2009-08-05 12:31:08 | haha, your right about that. although I need the money to pay for my college tuition :) |
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| David Edelstein @ 2009-08-05 19:26:53 | Since when did this proposed Pit Bull ordinance become a puffing-out-your-chest contest? Isnt this supposed to be about saving these dogs?
As for the proponents of BSL, breed bans, muzzle laws, etc... If you ever have a chance to sit and talk with one about other topics... they are not all there about ANYTHING. You are wasting your time in conveying logic to them.
Colleen Lynn and her bunk buddy Kory Nelson belong in 1595 Salem, Mass... and they know it.
Slowly but surely... the masses are letting go of their (Dogsbite.org) hysteria based opinions and looking to REAL organization and animal behavior experts for their information.
Bye Bye. |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-06 05:05:50 | David Edelstein said: Since when did this proposed Pit Bull ordinance become a puffing-out-your-chest contest? Isnt this supposed to be about saving these dogs?------
Geez, I wonder who you are referring to - because all I see is people trying to defend the dogs against a person who tries very, very hard to get them all killed..
"Puffing out your chest constest" - Nice, really, nice way to insult the people who work very hard to help the animals. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-06 07:10:37 | Karen Delise,
The dog pictured in your book that you identified as a labrador is not a labrador. Sorry, but it's not.
And,thanks for correcting me. I misspoke when I pointed out "hundreds" of fatal pit bull attacks. It should have been "more than a hundred" (in this country, at least, possibly worldwide it actually would be "hundreds" but I believe the pit bull crisis is worse in the US than anyplace else in the world)..
And, of course, if you count tatal pit bull attacks and serious pit bull maimings, the number is easily in the hundreds. |
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| dogcentric @ 2009-08-06 07:20:47 | Karen Delise,
And you still haven't answered my question: You have to admit that many, many pit bull owners are attracted to pit bull ownership because they want a dangerous dog, right? And, consequently, pit bulls have been and still are frequently BRED for dangerousness. Right? You aren't unaware that plenty of people breed pit bulls to guard junkyards and crackhouses and meth labs and to fight and kill other dogs. And lots of people just LIKE having a dangerous dog, and those people are also attracted to pit bull breeding and ownership. Right? So do you think that all this breeding FOR dangerousness has an effect on genetic pit bull temperament or not?
If you bought a lab from a breeder who bred for retrieving drive, would you expect it would likely have a lot of retrieving drive? So is there something unique about pit bulls that breeding for dangerousness doesn't produce increased dangerousness? |
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| KD @ 2009-08-07 14:21:56 | Karen Delise is a self proclaimed pit "expert". Nothing expert about her other than spreading propaganda to sell her books. If you are gullible enough to believe her, then you'll believe that Elvis is still alive and well and wants a date with you. |
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| KD @ 2009-08-07 14:34:29 | And ask NCRC to show hard copies of the "data", they can't do it. Seems they only "review" the data. And some "data" they say they review is not subject to being reviewed such as an ongoing investigation. Challenge them to show hard copy so you can make your own decisions and not just read Delise's biased and subjective opinions. |
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| Bit @ 2009-08-07 15:11:43 | Karen Delise and NCRC are just hired guns for the pit breeders and dog fighters, nothing more. |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-07 15:23:27 | Karen Delise and NCRC are just hired guns for the pit breeders and dog fighters, nothing more. -------- Yep, that is definitely libel.
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| game89 @ 2009-08-07 20:07:08 | Bit:"Karen Delise and NCRC are just hired guns for the pit breeders and dog fighters, nothing more".--------
so i guess the new kingpins of dog fighting rings are middle aged mothers that write books??? |
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| Robin Benit @ 2009-08-08 06:19:23 | KD - or as we know you - Pat Dunaway - if you read the bio in Delise's book - you will see she is retired from law enforcement, worked for NY state marine mammal rescue, and does pet therapy at nursing homes - yep, the makings of a dog fighter / breeder if ever I saw one ---I am surprised she has not sued you for the malicious comments and lies you make . |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-13 14:06:09 | cgr, you must be as giddy as a school girl to see someone killed by pitbulls. you and the other dogsbite.org nutjobs are probably gonna throw a party tonight huh? how does it feel to profit off the deceased?? just goes to show you that the dogsbite.org "organization" are just a bunch of twisted maniacal freaks of nature. name another organization that profits off the dead besides funeral homes? give up?? DOGSBITE.ORG!!
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| game89 @ 2009-08-13 14:15:29 | and thanx for providing the article in fredericksburg, because it shows that the pitbull was owned by a multiple offender, therefore further proving its the owners fault. unless you wanna defend a murderer?? anyway its a lose-lose situation no matter what kind of approach you wanna take. providing me with that article didn't help you at all cgr, but im sure you've got hundreds more articles to plaster on this website. so go ahead, copy and paste till your hearts content.
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| Sabrina @ 2009-08-13 18:17:04 | So you are telling me that pit bulls are the only dogs that bite? what about chows who ripped a friend of mines face off, or rotties or dobies or wimerhimers. if your going to ban one ban them all or the fight will never stop. Pit bulls are the best dogs i have ever seen and would never intentionally hurt someone if given the right training and care. All this is doing is taking family members from families who have had no bad intentions.
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 01:58:32 | Sabrina...good question. not they are not the only dog that bites. They are however, responsible for 60% of all fatal attacks, in the past 3 years. And 2009 is right on track to exceed this amount. Rotts are #2, which is precisely why Denver's only fatal attck in 10 yrs was by a Rott mix. Many cites do ban Rotts as well as Pits for this very reason (including, as of this year, military bases). As Andy Rooney would say, "Why is that"? |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 11:08:05 | wow cgr, i never knew someone could go through so much trouble just to prove a point about dogs, we are talking abut dogs right? why do you hate pitbulls so much? why are you devoting so much time and resources writing an essay's worth (despite of the fact that the majority of it is copied and pasted) of responses? dude seriously, get out and get some fresh air. oh wait thats right, the big bad pitbull is gonna get you lol |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 11:12:26 | YOU HEARD IT LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, DOGSBITE. "ORG" IS ONE, COUNT EM, ONE WOMAN. I THOUGHT IT WAS AN ORGANIZATION CGR???? |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 11:34:25 | cgr, why in the name of all thats holy are you comparing the rate of dog bites in the CITY of denver to the ENTIRE STATE of texas???? Texas is the largest state in america, combine that with the fact that texas is one of the most dog friendly states in the country is another factor, while denver is just a little metropolis area. if denver had more attacks than the entire state of texas combined, then this ban would've been lifted along time ago. such a stupid comparison to make cgr. thats like comparing the crime rate of nigeria to the entire african continent, or comparing the weight of a mouse to the weight of an elephant. cgr, do you even review half the nonsense you post? HUGE, EPIC failure on your behalf cgr. I suggest you refer back to your elementary school geography text book before any further posting, because this is just embarressing. I hope you aren't the best person colleen lynn has to offer, unless YOU ARE colleeyn lynn? |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 11:49:25 | and cgr, if your gonna lie make sure its a lie you can back up. to say Denver has experienced ZERO attacks is an outright lie. you sound like a perfect candidate for the denver city council actually lol. It has been reported that denver has the highest hospitilization rate due to dog attacks in the entire state of colorado, despite the ban. oh wait, you were schooled on this issue several posts ago. exactly why are you back again? to further humiliate yourself? stop while your still ahead cgr. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 12:49:00 | gameBoy - if you took the time to look at the text in the link- it was referring to pit bull atacks...Denver has had zero serious pit bull maulings, amputations or fatal attacks in 2009. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 13:00:17 | gameBoy - your link about the woman mauled by dog - that was 3 yrs ago. Again, a Pit bull ban will only prevent the highest % attributed to one type - pit bulls. It is lame logic to suggest it will 100% eliminate a dog attack, let alone make one go away from 3 years ago. Denver has the highest # of attacks in Colorado, as it is the largest city by far. I think most reader understand this. Calling Denver a little metropolis is an EPIC humilation on your part - it has almost as many citizens as does the entire state of North Dakota. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 13:10:05 | gameBoy - DBO maintains links to daily media reports, with photos, and police comments - just as reported. DBO then tabulates these attacks BY ALL BREEDS - let me repeat for the learning impaired - FOR ALL BREEDS. DBO has no way to predict that the numbers will consistently show pit bulls account for 60% of all fatal attacks (and growing) each year. How can that be "warped" or "biased'? |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 13:15:10 | gameBoy - OK - go to DBO, look at the fatal attacks documented by all breeds for 2007, 2008 and 2009. let me know where DBO has omitted a fatal attack by a non-pit bull. Again, DBO tracks ALL FATAL attacks by ALL BREEDS.
PERIOD. |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-14 13:47:58 | GameBoy: despite your claims, I am not the owner of DBO, I have never met her, now have i ever talked with her.
I have no idea of the size of her organization, or where it is located. I have no idea about the finances of her or DBO - nor is it yours or my interest - or anyone elses. I do know that she was badly mauled - not just broken bones - but CRUSHED bones...which cost her her career as a web designer...as well as prevented her from driving her car (stick shift)...I so know the name of the person who owner that pit bull, and FYI she is a very hgh paid adminstrator for the city of Seattle - and still is. She has not paid one dime to Colleen, nor even apologized. Her pit bull was on a leash - but she coould not contain it. Not suprisingly, nutters like yourself, have done their best to further maul her, via threats, vandalism, and even contacting her clients to point out that she has anxiety attacks. Typical nutter logic - let your pit bull crush someones ulna & radius bones to where they will never be the same - not to mention horrific visual & mental lifetime scars - then not only make fun of them for suffering anxiety attacks by calling her mentally insane - but also stating this to her clients... - these actions do more to promote BSL than DBO ever will. I would be honored being her called her friend - but I assure you I am nothing more than an email message to her...same as you are to me. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 14:16:40 | your right cgr, denver has had zero maulings FROM PITBULLS, now denver has to take care of maulings from other breeds lol. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 14:20:09 | cgr, whoever was your geography teacher needs a swift kick to the crotch, remind me to never enroll my future kids to whatever school you went too. "Denver has just as many people as the entire state of north dakota"- wow, what is the world coming too. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 14:36:11 | and cgr, no matter how many times you recite dogsbite.org, its never gonna change the fact that its 100% un-credible. why do you think her so called "organization", isnt backed up or endorced by any credible pet organization? why is it that when any politician (mike speedy) that brings up dogsbite.org as their main referance immediately laughed it? its simple really, dogsbite.org is a big joke. the only reason why you see her or anyone that bad-mouths pitbulls an expert, is because of your similar hatred pitbulls. so its only expected you would consider people like colleeyn an expert. but here on planet earth and not in the silly mind of cgr58, dogsbite.org is one giant hate campaign. reffering to dogsbite.org when you discuss pitbulls, is like referring to a neo-nazi website when you discuss the holocaust.and you admit that you dont even know colleeyn?? okay so going by that, how do you depend on her? in what way is colleeyn an "expert" on the issue?? because she was attacked by a pitbull? does a bite from a pitbull magically give one this amazing knowledge to start their own website?? where are her credentials? what are her credentials? what else does she have to offer besides her sob story? ive done research on colleeyn lynn, and shes a graphic web designer, thats it. so are the graphic web desingers attacked by pitbulls the new dog experts? |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 14:51:59 | the only reason dogsbite.org posts fatalities from other breeds, is just to keep the website up to date. kind of lkie a kickstand on a bike, there just thrown in there to give her site a little bit more depth. because i see it like this, colleeyn's main mission is to eliminate anything and everything pitbull. with that being the case, why bother even posting fatalities from other breeds? colleeyn is not seeking to destroy boxers, mastiffs, labs, chows, heelers or any other breed that has killed this year or the year before that. so yea they maybe there, but they serve no purpose to colleeyns cause. attacks from other breeds on dogsbite.org is like the appendix to the humany body, there non-vital. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 15:01:11 | hey cgr, wanna know why colleyn didn't revieve a dime from the owner, because she DIDN'T PRESS CHARGES!! Ive searched high and low on the internet looking for lawsuit records or police records of any kind. no charges were pressed, no arrests were made. colleeyn thought it would be best to make a website slandering and demoralizing a bunch of dog owners she's never met instead of doing what a normal person would've did, sue the pants off the owner. such behaviour further proves colleyns maniacal tendencies. so at the end of the day, people dont have to send her a bunch of threatining e-mails, vandalize her property etc. because colleeyn lynn is her own worst enemy, and sooner or later her radical behaviour will get the best of her. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 16:25:20 | you claim to not know colleeyn but you know alot about her than most people do. and for someone you dont even know you trust her a little TOO much, maybe it would help others to show copies of this alleged 18 page lawsuit lol, or explain to anyone how a dog attack case with many witnesses to testify against the owner can carry on for about two years!! your not colleeyn lynn? lol, riiiiiiight. and thats quite alright cgr if you wanna disclose this, i completely understand if you cant answer of my questions, who could in your position? what answer could you possibly give me to make me believe anything colleeyn spews out of her mouth is worthy of consideration? considering she isnt an expert on dogs. but ill give you your five seconds of fame to dance around that I mispelled colleeyns name, since you've ot nothing else to celebrate. Cant make a descent claim, so why not make fun of a single typo? not my bread and butter but its clearly up your alley. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 16:35:17 | of course denver officials would take colleeyn lynns skewed and grossly innacurate stats serious, their the ones that championed the ban so they must stand by something that supports them, not matter how innacurate the stats may be. what other source could they use to slander pitbulls and their owners besides dogsbite.org?? the AKC, the UKC, the ASPCA, the HSUS?? oh wait my bad, they dont endorse breed specific laws. so yea cgr, it would only make sense for denver officials to cite colleeyn lynns "stats". |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-14 16:43:24 | and about the population issue, comparing a city of 500,000 plus (denver) to a state of 24,000,000 plus (texas) is REALLY stupid. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 19:11:54 | cgr58, you devote way too much time in this. this is actually really sad to see someone have such hatred/fear of a certain type of dog that they will devote countless hours reading a book, gather a bunch of online newspaper articles, write page long responses and for what?? to prove a point to someone you dont even know? dude, what kind of life are you living where you just spend countless hours stirring up a bunch of controversey?? and about DOGS at that lol. you seriously need a hobby, a DIFFERENT hobby. cgr just admit it, you and I know both know you or colleeyn dont give a hoot about pitbull attack victims. you wait night and day for the latest pitbull attack, find the online news outlet that covered it, and recite dogsbite.org like poetry. what i find very suspicious, is where were your comments when other fatalities /attacks occured? where's your love and care when children are mauled/killed by boxers, akitas, mastiffs, labs, and many other breeds?? your as transparent as a wind shield cgr, stop humiliating yoursel while you have the chance. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 19:20:37 | cgr58: I can only hope that a pit bull doesn't maul someone you care about, and the officer who responds decides not to use deadly force to save them.
and whats the difference between a mauling from a pitbull and a german shephard? whats the difference between a mauling from a mastiff and a pitbull? give up? NONE. both breeds can maul and both breeds can kill, what would happen if my mother was killed by a mastiff? how would you react?? would scream for a ban on mastiffs should it ever happen? would I ever get your support?? oh wait my bad, if its not a ptbull it cant maul or kill, right cgr? the owner of the two mastiffs that killed him in LA could've used your words of wisdom before his mastiffs tore him limb from limb. but it wouldn't have made a difference anyway, he raised them the wrong way and in the end, he payed for it. but temperaments never have to do with the dogs up-bringing right? only dogs with the right breeding history are perfect angels. this is what the dogsbite.uuuuggghh lobby believes, which is why colleeyn, you and the other supporters will never be taken seriously. sorry bro. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 19:24:45 | and cgr,the ones that I care about are living in the bowels o detroit, michigan. the LAST, LAST, LAST thing on my mind is whether or not some stupid DOG is gonna kill them. but that probably your first concern gr, because according to you pitbulls are worse then drug dealers, rapists, gang members, serial killers, and terrorists combined. man you sound nuttier then colleeyn lynn, and thats REALLY saying something. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 20:05:10 | amazing, simply amazing, you just dont care at all about people attacked by other breeds do you? and the fact that you actually went to the website, completely IGNORED all the other attacks and saw ONE that you could use as a rebuttle. you are one twisted customer cgr, i really was right about you. you really dont care about the other victims. but ill keep posting other maulings if you want me too.
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-15 20:11:58 | gameboy: One can argue all day - and have valid proof - that no site tracks all non-fatal maulings. There are simply too many. Your sites omit serious maulings by pit bulls - but also fatal attack as well - and no doubt DBO doesn't list all non-fatal maulings...That said - DBO does list all fatal attacks by all breeds, and DBO's results are verified via other legal sites like www.dogbitelaw.com - the nations top lawyer on dog attacks...
At the end of the day, at the end of the year, pit bulls will be responsible for 60% of all fatal attacks....as well as most police action shootings, and most amputations. Sorry, but thats a fact. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 20:26:04 | and the fact that you cant prove that 60 % were by actual pitbulls and not mixed breeds or different breeds all together is all too comical. colleeyn has taken many media outlets that changed the breed of the dog that attacked a week later and went along with it anyway as a pitbull, make her so called "stats" grossly inaccurate. and because kenneth phillips jumped aboard the dogsbite.org looney bin just makes him another person along with you merrit cliffton, kory nelson and tom skeldon to laugh hysterically at. you all have one thing in common, you hate pitbulls. and kenneth phillip maybe a dog bite lawyer, but he isn't a dog expert, you aren't required to be an animal expert in the field of law. and you can keep ignoring other maulings all day long cgr, it just further proves my point that you along with the other BSL stool pigeons dont care about other victims. dogbite.org has been most successful in exposing sheeple to a world that doesn't exist, i.e. a world where problems begin and end with pitbulls. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 20:35:14 | cgr: "and no doubt DBO doesn't list all non-fatal maulings". you said it!! now with that being said, why should I take it seriously? why should anyone take it seriously?? thank you for informing everyone that DBO doesn't care about other victims. wll i already knew they didn't, but for anybody that didn't know thanx for telling. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 22:19:03 | cgr, 131 deaths from pitbulls???? really? do you honestly believe that?? well lets take the time to disect this shall we? first of all, the term "pitbull" is just that, a term. it is not refferring to a breed or a purebred, add that along with the fact the general public cant tell the difference between a stocky lab and an american pitbull terrier (you are in this category) AND it was by merritt clifton, the biggest anti pitbull nut-brain there is, and you've got a pile of mis-guided, uncredible steaming pile of nonsense. colleeyn only covers ALL the stats when the stats are to her interest. so in reality cgr, its not every nutters nightmare, its every nutters dream come true. merritt cliftons stats make as much sense as an address to the nation by goerge bush. but dont take my word for it cgr, merritt cliftons work has been debunked by every REAL dog expert you can think of. |
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| game89 @ 2009-08-15 22:30:07 | and here's a little tid bit from the AVMA about their position on stats that follow by breed and nothing else: "Dog bite statistics are not really statistics, and they do not give an accurate picture of dogs that bite. Invariably the numbers will show that dogs from popular large breeds are a problem. This should be expected, because big dogs can physically do more damage if they do bite".- may i remind these are actual experts and not some editor for a newspaper, or an angry graphic web designer, or some internet troll who devotes his life to slandering a breed of dog and their owners.
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| Anna @ 2009-08-18 01:29:58 | Pit bulls are not the problem! It is the owners. It takes a willing and able owner to raise one of these dogs. Instead of enforcing a BSL, we should spend the time and money on educating everyone, the owners and the public. I can understand the fear that some might have for pit bulls. Its the same fear that these dogs have when they attack. With the right training any dog can be "man's best friend" or the most vicious creature. My three year old pit is the nicest dog that I have ever met. People ask, "Would I leave my pit bull with alone with a infant." My answer is anytime. My hope is to make people see that it is not the breed, it's the owners. Yes this breed is a very powerful breed. Yes they can intimidate even the biggest man. Yes they can be dangerous. But what about the good side of pit bulls. They are the most loyal pets on this planet. They will do anything to please their owner. They are many Americans' best friends. The media only talks about the horrible side of pit bulls. Pit bulls are used for amazing purposes. They are hospital therapy dogs. They are search and rescue dogs. What about Helen Keller? She owned and trusted in a pit bull. What about the military who used Srgt. Stubby in WWII who saved an entire platoon? It is sad how many Americans buy into the media like it was the unbiased truth. In America back in the mid 1900's pit bulls were the American symbol. Media deemed this dog evil and the rest of the people believe it. BSL does not work. People before me have proven this over and over. We need to stop this BSL! We need to start educating everyone! |
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| Anna @ 2009-08-18 01:32:27 | www.atts.org |
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| cgr58 @ 2009-08-18 10:42:26 | anna- your theory is wrong. the same owner owned a pit and a GS. Both dogs walked into the childs room. Only one killed the child (pit bull). You also state pit bulls have the same fear when they attack ( as we do of them). really? this pit bull waltzed into a toddlers bedroom, siezed it by the head, and commenced shaking it until the child died. I would say the fear was in the childs mind, not the pit bulls....unless you've just taken 2 Placebos.
And the pit bull that mauled the mothers and their toddlers while they were seat belted into a radio flyer wagon (see above) while an owner w/ pit bull on a leash approached? That pit bull mauled both moms and both toddlers. I am 99% certain any fear that day was in the minds of the mothers and the 2 toddlers - somehow I do not see your point that the pit bull bolted from its owners leash, and tried to kill 2 kids and 2 mothers, because it was filled with fear of two toddlers strapped in a wagon. And as for the Placebo book stating tha claims oft pit bull attacks are like sharks are myths, isn't that what a shark would have done if both mothers fell off a pier into waters where a hungry shark was- the shark would circle and attack repeatedly, biting and twisting. yet the Placebo book shows side by side photos of shark teeth versus pits teeth, and concludes it is a myth since the teeth do not look alike. Simply amazing. the book also declares as myth that pit bulls attack w/o warning, despite the accounts I have just posted by the OWNERS in their own words - that thier pit bull of many years went nuts and attacked w/o any warning. Denverites - worry not...BSL was just re-established in the entire Prince George county, when local nutters try to have it over turned. |
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| Anna @ 2009-08-18 17:13:56 | Ok cgr. Your obviously missing my point. Dogs need training. It is unfortunate that these owners/victims could not properly train their dog. They are the ones who do not need to own any dog! All dogs, regardless of breed, are pack animals. They need a pack leader. They need boundaries and rules. All dogs, regardless of breed. Pit bulls are very powerful dogs. I have no doubt of that. But theyre still dogs. I have known a lot of people who own pit bulls. Who train them right. And they are just as sweet if not sweeter then the beloved golden retriever. I would leave my pit bull around any one any time, with out fear that she's going to attack someone and kill them. I say again ALL dogs need this training. All dogs can bite people. In fact, pit bulls do not have the highest number of bites. It just so happens that theirs are one of the most severe, which gives them the negative media attention. BSL does not help the fact that many people do not know how to properly train a dog. People need to be educated. As for the people who actually breed and train them to fight, they need to be stopped. They ruined this breed's awesome reputation. They are so many breeders like this as well and back yard breeders who do no comprehend or realize the great potential of this breed.
Cgr58 I ask you. Have you ever heard of therapy dogs? They can brighten a dying child's world if only for a moment. Pit bulls are therapy dogs. You need to look at both sides of this issue. I have. And it is a tragedy that these people were attacked. A tragedy. Which is why we need to educate people on the proper training. They are really great dogs. I would put my life in the hands of my dog before I would any human. The history of pit bulls has two different sides. Yes some were bred for fighting. But never were they bred for aggression towards humans. Never! All of these attacks show the ignorance of the owners. The other side is that they were bred to be family dogs. They are the beloved quintessential pets for a lot of families. A ban should be in place for dangerous dogs of all breeds. NOT JUST PIT BULLS! |
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| Anna @ 2009-08-18 17:15:10 | I agree with H. 100% |
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| sticklorat @ 2009-08-25 11:06:56 | I think each side have great points and concerns and this debate can go on and on. Ultimately it comes down too, what are the comparisons of breed specific bites? The thing is a chiuaua can snap just as instintaneously as a pitbull but the difference is the impact. The dog itself does not know the impact or of its power, they do just what dogs (all dogs) do.
We have a Pitbull as a family pet and we also have a chiuaua/blue healer mix and they get along great. We got our Pitbull 3 1/2 years ago when Denver banned them and we live in Arvada (which i research before hand to make sure Arvada was not planning on any bans) and fortunately (for our pitbull) Arvada had no plans at that time to place a ban. Honestly, I fed into the hype and was a little nervous and reluctant to get him since we have 2 children in the home whom at the time were 12 and 7 but, we were responsible, alert and aware, we did our research to be prepared and have never looked back. I absolutely love my BULL. Yes he is strong and yes he could do some serious damage if he wanted to but I find that very unlikely since (LIKE ANY DOG!!) we have done our home work, give him proper care and a loving home. He has NEVER ever attempted to bite or act like he would bite or attack any of us or any one (even strangers) that come to our home. I know all dogs are different but so are people. If Michael Vick can get a second chance in society why shouldn't the Pitbulls???? Here are some suggestions that maybe the opposite side would consider:
1. Age restricted ownership - maybe you have to be a minimum age (25) before you can own a pit bull? Shoot you have to be 24 before you can apply for school grants and loans without your parents tax info.
2. Certain amount of training classes must be taken and a certification obtained within a certain amount of time of becoming a Pit bull owner. And maybe those courses could have follow ups as the dog gets older and then the city can keep track of where the dog is and its progress.
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| sticklorat @ 2009-08-25 11:22:29 | I would just like to add one more thing to think about. Banning pitbulls or any other dogs is not a solution, this was just a knee jerk reaction. Just because the dogs are not in your imediate neighborhood now does not mean that the problem has gone away. It is just easier to look the other way. To really address the problem means we need to come to a solution that is fit for all sides not just one side. So Please Please consider other options. I know it is difficult if you or someone you know have been negatively impacted by a Pitbull but please remember they are dogs and can not speak for their actions and that they are not all the same. :) thank you! |
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| Anna @ 2009-08-31 22:46:14 | Well put Lori, well put! |
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| s @ 2009-09-11 18:08:14 | i was going to move to denver untill i found out about the pitbull ban. How disguisting |
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| Beyondimpossible @ 2009-12-21 08:23:28 | Reference Against,programme data so evidence immediately issue contract farm solicitor drink writer dress mistake assembly nod alone possibly experience bridge nothing account happy search unfortunately than soldier except whatever parliament module sentence letter staff tonight huge length marriage paper onto talk result force run throughout for normally after necessary tall sing visitor recently commit sample that display exercise press understand initiative accept home bank thank injury development whether surprise employ top discussion sex same own activity well avoid answer follow breath organization considerable evidence |
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| PP @ 2010-01-23 03:53:13 | Pitbull is the history of the United States on which the whole world knows.How can you call a "man a citizen" who destroy the history of their country?These citizens have no past they have no future.
And for themselves, they lead you |
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| hotel turkei @ 2010-02-23 19:32:06 | Talk Appeal,credit ship school week still capacity step conduct adopt idea retain box admit sorry one interest perfect war far high behind clear undertake surface no find mean administration access exist surface attack yard through very life spread whole window reaction budget switch listen control regular boat drink away creation normal effect construction refer suppose young disease organise screen year otherwise journey especially time wide flow distinction parent remain once alone city record have survive index bird copy pain sell convention circumstance ring thank border arrive authority immediately where ear cross existence only recognise |
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